Discipline and the co-parent: When do you discuss?
I just came upstairs from our family living room, seething at the way my husband had just asked Everett to do something. The something was fine, it was the communication. I have a better way! I wanted to shout. But our house is small, and we've been working on keeping our arguments away from the children. Now I'm fidgety and anxious, waiting to tell him how I wish he'd handled the situation.
But when is a good time to hammer out this discipline stuff? I know there won't be time tonight between finishing work, dinner, bedtime, nursing, me falling exhausted into bed. We famously once spent a couple of hours of our "date night" heatedly discussing how whose method was wronger at a hotspot, only stopping when another patron asked us to. We were creating a negative vibe in the whole restaurant, he said! (We apologized and ended up becoming friends.) Besides, date nights or even couples counselling appointments are far too few and far between to save up all the little things.
When sleep deprivation is setting in (what with a little baby and a full-time job), how do you carve out time to get to some common ground with the little issues of co-parenting? How do you negotiate these disagreements without causing a rift in your family fabric?
I can't wait to hear others' responses to this one, since I could really use some good ideas here too. Having a four and a half year old, a three year old, and nine week old, I've basically taken a temporary hiatus from arguing all but the most offensive differences in parenting style. I just don't have the mental or physical capacity unless I feel like something is going to be potentially damaging to one of the kids (no more hashing out why my husband never puts sweaters on the kids, can't get them to bed before 9:00, or always makes them cry when he washes their hair).
Before the third child was born though, conversations happened on the weekend during nap/quiet time or whispered in the bathroom with the door closed (usually around dinner time, I'm not sure why). Then of course, there are the exasperated, taking of ones spouses's name in vain when something warrants an immediate expression of disapproval (like when my 4.5 year old vegetarian old asked if people ever ate people and my husband started going into detail about the Donner party).
Posted by: andrea | October 08, 2007 at 07:55 PM
As long as he's not verbally of physically abusing them, let it go. Offer your advice in a non-threatening way in the hallway on the way to the bathroom, etc. (if that's the time you have)and when the kids aren't around. You don't have to have a come to Jesus discussion, just say you saw "this" and you have learned in the past the "this" works better and then leave it alone. Guys are weird, I tend to get a better result if I am straightforward but gentle.
Good luck.
Posted by: Monica in Cali | October 08, 2007 at 08:55 PM
Ah, good times, good times.
It is important at moments like this, which can come way too often it seems, to remember that you and hubby are on the same side! You both want the best for your little ones. It is important that kids hear us backing our partners up - even when we may not whole-heartedly agree. Not that we have to be all fake and rose-colored - it is also important that our kids learn from us how to argue well and how to forgive, apologize, and love without conditions.
Perspective always helps. My husband may not be parenting exactly how I would - but at least he's parenting! There are so many moms out there who have to carry the load on their own, either as single moms or with absent or neglectful dads. I'll take his sometimes odd or irritating methods over none at all.
And laughter goes a long ways. Bringing a light note to start the conversation can set the tone for a healthy discussion ("The Donner party, honey? Seriously? You really should write a children's book about that lovely bedtime story.")
Posted by: Kristi | October 08, 2007 at 08:58 PM
My comment on this comes from my experience as a daughter, moreso than a mother - in this situation, less IS more. Much like Monica in Cali noted, clearing the initial hurdle of "letting it go" will save you millions of these hurdles in the long run. I watched my own mother struggle with this a lot. And, as her child, it became clear to me at a very young age that the only product was her constant fight for and loss of control, and my resentment of both those things... Plus it brought the fights (that my parents also tried to keep away from us but I wasn't always asleep when they thought I was).
I also think having the mindset of having a "better" way is en route to feeling like we have the "right" way. both are problematic in that they try to alter the flow and push against an invisible force. Too much energy. Boys will be boys and dads will be dads. so different from mothers. eternally.
I am so exhausted as a mother of one, i cannot imagine maintaining four relationships in a household as mother of three and wife of 1. GOOD JOB!
Last thing - one of the keys to coparenting is that indeed, it is a co-operative system. With 2 great parents, your boys are sure to benefit from the full spectrum of things you each have to offer as individuals, as well as together, including a few differences in communication tools and discipline tools.
I lucked out and have a phenomenol father. I still do not hear the end of it from my mother on how "badly" he did disciplining us... not enough structure, etc. What she doesn't know (or maybe understand) is that my father's so-called "lax" discipline led to a deep trust between myself and my father, and my brother and my father.
Posted by: anotherMama | October 08, 2007 at 09:18 PM
yup. You've already selected your mate, pretty hard to evaluate now. I've found The Book loophole... When my husband started demonstrating crazy tactics I found a book that I knew would address the problems (Unconditional Parenting), read it, and then told him that it Blew My Mind, and thought it was awesome, and really hoped that he would read it so that we could approach parenting together, and so that we'd have something really cool to talk about.
If he hadn't of gone for it (once he read it, his mind was pretty much blown as well) then I would have focused even more on my role as a parent... The way I figure, once you're married...once you have a child together...it's too late to start the parenting tutorials. We all really learn how to be parents After we've become one. I started re-evaluating, questioning, growing, about a year into parenting. My hub has only just started, but man what a start. We each do it on our own time. If you can provide 3rd party information, awesome. If it's interesting to the hub, even more awesome. Maybe that will work. But as for a lecture from his wife, please imagine what it feels like when your mother in law (or other "quiet observer") talks to you about parenting, and reflect upon how effective that is. We choose these people because at some point we think they'll be OK at what they're doing. It might take 10 years for them to be the Father that we know they can become... all we can do is mother in the meantime.
Posted by: sara | October 08, 2007 at 09:59 PM
I can ditto alot of the comments here, including support for you to be taking on such purposeful parenting. I've read alot of your postings here and I imagine you're working double time, not just on what you have in front of you, but also on trying to make the changes you've been talking about.
As far as I'm concerned, I often have a better way than my husband! But then I realize that I just have my way and it's not the same as his. I had to force myself to stop sharing my way with him all the time because I was robbing him of allowing himself to find his own way. That wasn't helping me any, let me tell you! I had to find my way, figure out what worked, what didn't, etc. Why shouldn't he be allowed to do the same and make his own mistakes? I think it's just fine for our children to know that mom and dad have different styles and that's that. My husband is bright, he can figure out when things don't work for him. Sometimes he even talks with me about an incident, asking my opinion on how he did. (Honestly, every now and then I lie and tell him he did great when I disagreed with it just becuase I know he was really working hard at the time and he needed support to know I respect him as a dad even when it blows up in his face!) Occasionally something big will come up, and we talk about it, but learning to know the difference between something big and something small is part of the co-parenting thing. As you let go of more and more, you will probably find that being able to talk on the fly about things will get easier. Both of you won't be nearly as sensitive. And he may offer you feedback on things he notices about your interactions with the kids. Which, intellectually is nice but emotionally hard to take, trust me!
Based on what you've posted here, I imagine you and your husband have really different styles of taking on the world. That's going to show up in parenting. You'll be amazed at how much more relaxed you can be when you let go of all that you can. He'll rise to the occasion, I'm sure.
Again, I really respect you talking so openly about your family. I think it shows all of us that we're not in this alone. Keep hanging in there. And if you're a Seinfeld watcher, practice Frank Costanza's "Serentiy Now" mantra!
Posted by: mom22 | October 08, 2007 at 10:07 PM
Odd? Irritating? Me? Who else are the kids going to get their information about cannibalism from?
Some of us, lacking the time to discuss these at home, choose to air our child-rearing differences online...
She's right about presenting a united front. In fact, it's almost better to appear united to a child than to be "correct".
I also choose to see differences in the way Mom and Dad parent as a sort of yin and yang - differing styles that make up complete parenting. Some times my answer also is, "let me discuss it with Mom first".
Frankly, having the same basic values and worldview probably helps us the most. If you and your partner don't see eye to eye on human nature, and child-rearing is bringing those issues out, try and talk about what's behind the parenting methods. Understanding where stuff is coming from helps a lot.
Anything else I should know, hon? =)
Posted by: Kristi's Hubby | October 09, 2007 at 08:00 AM
One idea I've gotten from my sis is for you both to save your gripes for a decided "airing" time once a week. You have to decide when might work for you. Maybe Sunday after the kids go to bed... almost like a game plan for the coming week.
Knowing that you WILL have an opportunity to air your woes often makes "biting your lip" a bit easier in the immediate situation.
By the time Sunday rolls around, you will have let some things roll off your back and will want to discuss the things that have left you with a lingering "yuck."
We all hate being called a "nag." This idea helps keep a bit of peace in the house during the week, feel good about not micro-analyzing and trying to "fix" EVERYTHING, spend less time honing in and dwelling on the immediate negatives, and helps focus on the bigger stuff.
We're still working on it in our household... always a process...
Posted by: kara | October 09, 2007 at 09:05 AM
We also had our own version of The Book that we turned to years ago, which really served as a springboard for creating some groundrules and norms for our little family. Beyond having the same basic values, it's the logistics on how we plan to live those values. We've literally created a list of 'How We Do Things' in our family and it's posted on the fridge.
And... even with our "rules" and such, there are still times when toes get stepped on or we disagree as parents. So as for *when* we hash things out? Now. We're not good at letting things slide or waiting much too long, or else little issues tend to turn into big issues. So we make the time, give our daughter a project to get absorbed in if necessary so she's out of the room, and deal.
It's such a personal thing, though. Every couple is so different. I mentioned to a friend the other day that my husband and I are good at communicating in the moment, and she pointed out that she and her partner prefer (and are better at) waiting to communicate until things blow over.
Posted by: allison | October 09, 2007 at 09:26 AM
thanks for all your input, guys! yeah, we're stuck with extremely different styles and his comes from a lifetime of rather poor choices on the parental front (I think his mom employed a never-before-seen combo of the "drill sergeant" and "helicopter" parenting styles, with a couple of mean step-dads thrown in for good measure), while mine is an over-reaction to HIS upbringing -- so though we generally agree on that basics, and we've been working with objective third parties to come up with standards like "these rules are our most important house rules" etc, he occasionally screws up the delivery under stress, and it makes my heart hurt.
I love the idea of a weekly airing of grievances. It's good to allow some things to diminish... maybe Saturday night after bedtime. there's nothing good on TV anyway, hehe!
and thanks Kristi's hubby for weighing in! you'll appreciate that often, when Jonathan and I get in a big (ahem) "discussion" and I think I've given the parting shot, he yells at my retreating back, "why don't you just go blog!?!" I've decided to never blog (really) angry...
Posted by: sarah gilbert | October 09, 2007 at 09:33 AM
My husband sit down once a week and address these issues as well as others. Its our time to discuss how we think we are doing co-parenting. It seems to work really well so far. We try to find a united ground when it comes to discipline and how we talk to our daughter, for example we both us phrases like "no thank you" or "please walk away." I know that if I tell my husband what to say or correct him in front of our daughter he is going to get really mad. Lets face it, no one like to be undermined in front of anyone else, especially the kids.
Posted by: Becky | October 09, 2007 at 10:14 AM
Ummmm . . . can I say a word for the virtue of arguments in front of kids? My husband and I cooperate remarkably well on many aspects of our lives, but that's not to say things are perfect. I don't think it's bad for the kids to see one of us get irritated/upset/angry with the other. They get to see us deal with our differences and come to some resolution. They get to see that you can have differences with a person and still love each other. Now, granted, we're not screaming at each other or hurling crockery across the room. I'm not advocating that you let it all hang loose in the name of teaching your kids a lesson. But I don't think it's necessarily helpful to grow up thinking their parents agree on everything, that partners aren't allowed to have and argue for their different opinions.
So that's my two cents--I know it's not exactly addressing Sarah's original question. My husband and I aren't always airing our differences in front of our kids--we do a lot of "talking" via email while he's at work. I like email because I get to think carefully about my words and their impact, and if it's too much work to write about something, then that issue is really trivial and you need to let it just go.
Posted by: janice | October 09, 2007 at 11:11 AM
My husband and I had very different upbringings, my parents pretty much let me do as I pleased with few consequences and my husband had alot of rules and consequences and a horrible stepdad. Like Sara, the book that helped was Unconditional Parenting by Alfie Kohn, I was introduced to it by the Connected Parenting workshop at Zenana Spa, then read the book.....problem...my husband neither has the time or inclination to read parenting books....luckily he has a DVD available online (and at Zenana Spa I think)...anyway, before I could order it Alfie himself came to Portland and gave a 2 hr talk which we both attented and finally all the concepts I had been trying to explain were heard. Neither of us parent perfectly but at least having both agreed on alot of what Alfie had to say, I can always refer back to that in our discussions/disagreements. And the fact is we are not the same person and are going to parent differently sometimes....unless what he is doing is totally unacceptable I just let it go and he does the same for me. He is a fantastic father and does alot more right than wrong. I try to remember to mention all the things I love about the way he parents so when I tell him something i dont like it balances out.At the end of the day my parents made alot of mistakes I hope to avoid but I adore them both and know they did the best they knew how and so will our kids because bottom line is that we love the crap out of them and they know it.
Posted by: Lara | October 09, 2007 at 11:35 AM
Sarah,
Not too be all mushy-gushy but it might be nice to also talk about what's working in the weekly touch bases. It might get to be an argument waiting to happen if there's not acknowledgement and appreciation as well as grievances - it could be about him or how the kids are responding to you both.
Just a thought.
Posted by: Monica in Cali | October 09, 2007 at 12:40 PM
I strongly recommend that you also avoid letting these discussions come up on or around date-nights...that's your time to reconnect as a couple and put your marraige first. It sounds corny, but I seriously believe that your connection with each other sets the tone for what happens in the family.
In our house, I'm the one who tends to seek out advice from books and of course, the urbanMamas and then Tryg tends to ask me what "our strategy" is going to be for certain issues. It's funny, sometimes he asks what "the mamas" think about certain things! While it's nice that we dont disagree, sometimes I feel frustrated/scared that I'm the one to "has" to set the direction. (Why do I "need" to spend my nights reading parenting books while he reads the latest topseller? Or, What if "I" choose the wrong theory and screw up our kids forever?)
We're learning as we go, and we both believe that knowledge is power so we learn as much as we can and then see what works for our family and what feels right and we go from there.
Posted by: Leah | October 09, 2007 at 02:16 PM
Having been down this road with a couple of mothers (two boys, 7 and 15 now - with different moms), here's my two cents worth: knowing when to make a point and when to back off is very important.
Also, the way you communicate with your S.O. is more important than the point you're trying to make. If you're yelling, arguing and getting emotionally upset, and maybe upsetting kids or nearby restaurant patrons, just my guess you're going a little overboard. Learning to communicate in a mature and adult way about all the little things in parenting and relationships is tough - but worth it.
Realize that the long perspective will help. "Will this really matter when he's grown up and 15 years old and trying to get through freshman year in high school?"
Don't sweat the little things...and they're almost all little things.
Cheers!
Posted by: Tim | October 09, 2007 at 02:49 PM
Well, I'm probably not in much of a position to comment, as I'm doing the single mom thing. But, I work with a lot of kids in foster care. The only thing I have to add, or rather, reiterate, is that if you feel his behavior is abusive, or even serves to create a fissure in his relationship with his child, the sooner the better to talk.
It sounds like he didn't have the best role models for parenting, and, if you discussed this at one point and he said anything to the effect of, "Man, I don't want to parent like my parents did..." it might be worthwhile to remind him of this desire to improve on past generations, and remind him that you're his partner and the thing you have going for you is 2 sets of eyes to create a best possible life for your kidlets.
My <$.01
Posted by: kirsten | October 09, 2007 at 06:04 PM
What I do with my husband is just share stories about how I was in a tough situation with one of our kids and what I did, what worked and what didn't. I make it a part of our daily "how was your day" discussion around dinner time. Sometimes we have to have a bigger, private discussion about the state of parenting and what I always come back to is what kind of relationship I want to have with my kids throughout their lives, and I don't approach it in terms of how to control them. I think about what role I want in their lives, how I want them to feel about me, and then I try to act accordingly. I don't want to be scary or unapproachable, I also don't want to be an enabler, and I always want to be respected. This means I have to be calm and consistent, I have to listen and be flexible. When I put it this way to my husband, and explain what my goals are as a parent, he thinks about his own goals and acts accordingly. I only intervene if it looks like he's floundering or if he's really losing it and scaring everyone (which I think has happened twice, and I've certainly had my share of mama meltdowns).
For what it's worth, I find I've learned just as much about parenting skills from reading business organizational books as parenting books. They don't offer specific tactics appropriate for, say, three-year-olds, but the basic tenants are really useful.
Posted by: thisKat | October 10, 2007 at 11:36 AM
Tim's point that "the way you communicate with your S.O. is more important than the point you're trying to make" is, for me, the crux of the matter.
The arguments in my household tend to have less to do with how things are done or who is right than they do with who just who is generally being grumpy and negative.
I don't care much how the little details are done, but I do care that there isn't a whole lot of stewing and negativity and tension in the home. Due to some family-of-origin issues my husband had a tendency to default to that grumpy point of view when he had stress at work, etc (he's mellowed considerably over the years). In response I used to take a hardline approach, ie "snap out of it NOW" which, shockingly, didn't work.
Not that I coddle or kiss up ala the old-fashioned housewife stereotype either...for us the above mentioned Sense of Humor works wonders. Sometimes its counterintuitive and it needs to be gentle so as not to hurt feelings, but its a good attitude to have in general, just to lighten things up a little.
Posted by: anne | October 11, 2007 at 08:43 AM
Sorry for more Seinfeld references, but the grievance airing sounds a little too much like festivus for me. I don't know that I would enjoy a weekely airing time, either as the person airing or the airee. I do agree with keeping it away from date time, if it must be done, but I'm more in line with keeping things more like thisKat describes, just part of the day. And if it's a more specific "when kiddo was doing this and you responded with this," I find those things go over better while I'm offering a little coddling and sucking up. Sorry, maybe I have a little too much old fashioned housewife in me, but some foot rubbing goes a long way towards softening tough feedback. I know I hear things a lot better when mine are being massaged. And if there isn't at least 15 minutes in the day for this, that could be part of the problem. I know I'm more sensitive to his faults when we don't have nice time together. And vice-versa.
Hope things are getting better for you.
Posted by: mom22 | October 11, 2007 at 04:42 PM
It took a year but my husband is finally able to do a time-out with my 3 year old. He just couldn't do it before & she wouldn't take it from him. He sent her to time out yesterday for something that I thought was such a minor transgression but then I realized that she's been a little too aggressive with her little sister lately & he called her on it. Yay for dad!
Posted by: capella | October 15, 2007 at 08:03 AM