Nursing in Public - It's NOT Against the Law
Chrissy shares a story about her friend's experience with nursing in public - breastfeeding mamas really shouldn't have to think twice about it. Chrissy thinks we should "support breastfeeding mommies by boycotting Fred Meyer." Or, does this call for a mass public breastfeeding event a la Critical Mass to raise awareness?
Last week, a friend of mine was shopping at the Fred Meyer near her house when her two-month-old decided he wanted to be tanked up. She settled on a bench outside the play area, where her daughter was, and started to breastfeed him. He was crabby and popping on and off, but she finally got him settled. As he was eating, the store manager came up to her and told her she needed to be more discreet. Needless to say, she was embarassed and completely horrified. She had a short exchange with him, in which she asked him if he'd tell someone with a midriff-baring top that SHE needed to be more discreet, and he explained that breastfeeding was "different" and she should at least cover up with a blanket.
Now, how many of you have tried to breastfeed a crabby, flailing infant while successfully covering up with a blanket?
My friend later called the regional office to complain and was basically told the same thing by the regional manager - you're allowed to breastfeed in our stores, yes, but you need to be "discreet".
Women are never going to breastfeed in large numbers in this country if the culture continutes to see it as embarassing, sexual, or something that should only be done in private. While I don't argue with the need to try to be as discreet as possible, due to the current unsupportive climate, but it's NOT always possible. Women should not be harrassed for trying to feed their babies! I'm sure a bottle-feeding mother has never been approached and told to cover up that bottle...
Anyway, I wanted to let breastfeeding moms and supporters that Fred Meyer is not breastfeeding-friendly and that I won't be shopping there any more. I've also written about this on my blog today -http://knittinmom.blogspot.com. I want to spread the word as much as possible - Fred Meyer should at least be shamed into apologizing for harrassing my friend!
Wow! That really happened here in Portland?...I truly thought it was the most BF friendly place in the country. As a mom currently BF a 10 month old, I am very angered by the above situation. My family lives in the south, and my mother was embarrassed by my BF in public while I was visiting her there....I am so proud that I am using my breasts for what they were intended. And, although they aren't that much to look at, they are most certainly not as offensive as the booty crack and flabby love handles I see everyday with the current trend of lowrider jeans! Me (and my "sisters") second a boycott and/or critical mass type action!
Posted by: Rebecca | April 12, 2006 at 10:09 PM
oh i'm so there if there's a nurse in.
oregon law does not say you may breastfeed DISCREETLY in a public place, it says "A woman may breastfeed her child in a public place." (ORS § 109.001
1999 Ore. ALS 306; 1999 Ore. Laws 306; 1999 Ore. SB 744)
oh fred meyer, how could you do this? i love you so, but i will happily boycott if need be. *sigh*
can i cut'n'paste this to another board?
Posted by: jj | April 12, 2006 at 10:22 PM
I'm really inclined to think that this was an instance of one bad apple, not official Fred Meyer policy.
I cannot count the times I plunked myself down on a comfy piece of lawn furniture in our local FM and nursed my babies. Never got any kind of negative vibe from the employees at all. (Nor from anyone else, I might add). They'd give a little smile when they saw what I was doing.
Posted by: Kate | April 13, 2006 at 06:38 AM
I'd be up for a nurse-in. The thought of trying to be discreet with my 9 month old popping on and off to see what's going on in a quiet room, much less in a crowded store - the futility of such an attempt makes me laugh..
What exactly are the FM folks worried about? That seeing a little nipple will turn people off from buying apples, easter baskets or garden supplies? Even if FM wrongly sees breasts as only about sex, don't they know that sex sells? They should be thanking us.
Posted by: nonlineargirl | April 13, 2006 at 07:11 AM
Wow, that sucks. I have nursed my girl more than once in the furniture section at the FM on Johnson Creek. I was not discreet, as they say, but no one stopped me. If we can't have a nurse-in at FM, perhaps we could arrange a letter writing campaign?
I once saw a mom in Target nursing her baby (out in the open!) and thanked her for doing it. She told me she'd been chastized for breastfeeding in public, so she was happy to hear a positive word.
Posted by: Sara | April 13, 2006 at 08:26 AM
I don't have any of those stores around where I live, but if I did I would definitely boycott. I'm a nursing mama and though I never nursed in public with my first daughter, I've come to realize that the purpose of the boob is to nourish. I have nursed daughter #2 at:
Red Lobster
the mall benches
Picture People's front window
Bob Evan's
etc. etc. etc.
If the kid needs to eat, the kid needs to eat. I have never had a problem, but if someone approached me and said that I think I would kick them in the head. Seriously! It's NATURAL to feed your child that way. And if you've noticed that I'm nursing, then you're obviously looking WAY TOO CLOSELY!
Posted by: Blackbeltmama | April 13, 2006 at 09:16 AM
Thanks for your words of support, everyone! When this first came up, a nurse-in was my first thought. Another friend of mine consulted her hubby, who is an attorney, and found out that Oregon state law isn't necessarily all that clear. It does say that a woman can breastfeed in a public place, but is the inside of a privately-owned business a public place? So a nurse-in by a few people might only result in FM legally asking us to leave (unless we do it outside on the sidewalk). Although if there are enough of us, and we can get media coverage, it might be worth it just to embarass FM and bring some attention to the plight of nursing moms.
BTW - this happened at the Gateway FM and could've been considered an isolated incident if not for the fact that the Regional Manager said the same thing when my friend called him. So it looks to be regional attitude, if not official policy. I think a letter-writing campaign to FM would be a great start, and also to our legislators to strengthen the law. If it's true that private businesses can kick nursing moms out at their discretion, then it's really not much of a law, is it?
Posted by: Chrissy | April 13, 2006 at 09:16 AM
When I hear of stuff like this it makes me think Americans are sooo lame. I am American and have been patriot my whole life, but.. I was in Paris last summer and loved the fact the families just seemed to flow freely through all facets of life. Kids are everywhere, playing, parents are of all types and persuasions and mamas are nursing everywhere without anyone giving it a second thought. I was very pregnant for the second time while I was there so I was paying attention to this type of thing. It could have been the chocolate croissants, but my perceptions of their attitudes toward family just left me feeling like that is the way it should be.
Posted by: Monica | April 13, 2006 at 09:44 AM
I used to do a lot of work with women from Mexican farmworker communities. The ones who came to my office with young children would routinely pull up shirts and put babies to breast. No explanation, no apology, no "discreet" blankets, no batting an eye. They are my heroes! I vowed to follow their example and nurse my own babies without all the weirdness and shame mainstream Anglo-American culture places on breastfeeding.
With that in mind, I think a nurse-in is a great idea. It ups visibility, reinforces the normalcy of breastfeeding whenever & wherever, and sends the message that nursing mamas are everywhere. (How many mamas in Portland DON'T rely on Fred Meyer to some degree or another?) Hopefully this will illustrate the power of a potential boycott so effectively that the boycott itself becomes unnecessary.
Posted by: Tia | April 13, 2006 at 10:45 AM
WTF? I can't even count the number of times I nursed my son in a FM, and not once did I get a comment or even a glance. I think it was just the Gateway store and the regional person, and not a whole FM-wide problem. It does illustrate, however, the nationwide issue this country has with breastfeeding, as Monica and Tia pointed out. Hearing stories like this from nursing mamas on a regular basis angers me to no end. I was one of those moms who nursed more in public than in private. I think you'd be surprised how much a letter-writing or even a signature cathering campaign can do, if it is directed at the right people and got enough press. A nurse-in is a great idea - great visual impact. Let me know if I can help. I'm good at stirrin' up the pot, esp. for causes near and dear to me :)
Posted by: Marlynn | April 13, 2006 at 10:58 AM
I'd be in! I can't believe that happened to you. My son hates being covered when nursing, so I completely understand how difficult it is to be "discreet" when in public.
Posted by: meg | April 13, 2006 at 11:01 AM
You know, when I think about the past 7 months with Genevieve, I think I've nursed more out in public than in private! There's nothing like the fresh, cool air to get her hungry. I think a nurse-in at the Gateway branch FM, at the same day and time (maybe even making sure the same manager is on duty) is called for.
Posted by: Serena | April 13, 2006 at 12:29 PM
I'm the Indiscreet Nursing Mama who was harrassed at the Gateway FM. I too could not believe this happened here in beautiful Portland (though, yes, it was Gateway, not exactly the most progressive part of town). I nursed my first EVERYWHERE and never had a problem. Mostly got lots of smiles from people who seemed pleased to see a mama breastfeeding. My second and I are just starting to get out to grocery stores and so forth and this was one of the first times I nursed him someplace so public. At first I wasn't keen on the idea of a nurse-in...I never wanted to go back to that store again, for anything. I wanted to forget about it and sure didn't want to share what had happened with strangers. Which is of course exactly what THEY want to do. Now I am over my shame and I WANT people to know. I'll post here when I get the nurse-in thing figured out...hopefully within the next week. Thank you (again!) Chrissy, for sharing my story.
Posted by: Chris | April 13, 2006 at 01:08 PM
If I still nursed I would be glad to participate. I'm sorry this happened to you. When I was nursing I never had a problem. Our childbirth class actually distributed cards with nursing rights on them so we could flash it should be ever have a problem or confrontation. I always kept it handy in my purse but never needed to use it.
Posted by: Andy | April 13, 2006 at 01:25 PM
Fred Meyer is considered a public place, so you are legally within your rights to breastfeed there.
Posted by: Liz | April 13, 2006 at 01:59 PM
I'm so down for the cause! FM is a favorate time killer of mine and am sad to boycott but I SOOOOO willing! I'll stand by all of you ladies with whatever decision is made to make our point. Lets show some boob!
Posted by: Kelli | April 13, 2006 at 04:11 PM
'discrete'?? I'LL give you 'discrete'! I'm there for a nurse-in sometime in the next week...
Posted by: olivia | April 13, 2006 at 08:46 PM
Another breastfeeding mama here to support you. World Breastfeeding Week is officially August 1, but heck, it can start a little early in Portland! Perhaps we can seek the support of the Nursing Mother's Counsel: http://www.nursingmotherscounsel.org/promote/index.htm
Posted by: Hau | April 13, 2006 at 09:10 PM
If it's in the afternoon when school is out, consider me in! Rowan and I would be proud to nurse for the cause.
Posted by: Fionnsnana | April 13, 2006 at 09:13 PM
So much for the laidback West Coast... I was just in Florida for a week and I never saw another woman breastfeed in public... which made me feel like I was doing something wrong. My son is 8 months, and hell, no, he ain't going to stay hidden under anything -- he never liked it when he was little and so I whip it out whenever and wherever. If I can make it to the nurse-in, I'm there!
Posted by: Suz | April 13, 2006 at 09:54 PM
I've never had any issue with nursing in public, which I've certainly done my share of, but I've been thinking about the legal issue about this all day. I guess that comes from being a lawyer's daughter.
So, I'm working on getting the legal definition of "public place" and will share once there is consensus. Apparently it isn't as easy of a question to answer as one may have thought.
Posted by: Liz | April 13, 2006 at 11:04 PM
There are a lot of great comments here. I figure you can handle one more from a local Papa.
Breastfeeding is one of the best things you can do for your child, there should never be any shame attached to it. So, kudos to all the mamas nursing in public.
If you do experience breastfeeding discrimination, sharing the experience in forums like this definitely helps put the pressure on unsupportive businesses.
In addition, the Nursing Mothers Counsel would like to learn of these types of incidents. You can connect with them through their website. Here is the link to their page on protecting breastfeeding rights:
http://www.nursingmotherscounsel.org/protect/rights.htm
Anyway, FM will be getting none of my business until they apologize and get their policies straight.
Posted by: Tony | April 14, 2006 at 12:39 AM
Liz - Isn't the definition of a public space with regard to nursing rights the same as the definition of a public space with regards to any discrimination? That is, though a business can say "We reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone" they can't legally say "And that means black people aren't welcome here." - that is, it's a private business, subject to public laws about discrimination. While a private club can still exclude women or gay spouses, legally, can a business that is not a club do the same?
Wouldn't the same apply with regard to breastfeeding? I say, FM needs a mass visit from some nursing mamas.
Posted by: Betsy | April 14, 2006 at 06:19 AM
Thanks everyone for all your comments. Just to let you know, we've emailed NMC (mentioned above by Hau and Tony) to share Chris' story. We've encouraged them to chime in here and share their expertise, especially with respect to the legal protections of nursing mothers.
Posted by: urbanMamas | April 14, 2006 at 10:16 AM
I'm all for the nurse-in! However, I am a full time working mom, so maybe a weekend thing. We should call all the media outlets and alert them.
Posted by: Jenni Brown | April 14, 2006 at 01:35 PM
I am amazed. I have nursed my daughter tons of times at our local FM and never, ever recieved anything but smiles from teh staff and other shoppers. Once a employee asked if I needed a pillow. And I love in super conservative Newberg! I have to believe that this was a bad bad decision on the part of the local store not the entire chain. I am glad some one also posted the state law. This woman who was harrassed should logde a complaint or at least talk to her state legislators. Last legislative session all sorts of pro-breastfeeding lang was passed! Please post on the nurse in!
Posted by: Emily G | April 14, 2006 at 03:58 PM
I'm sorry this happened to you, but I'm not surprised in the least. I think certain areas of Portland are very backwards, & this is just one of those examples.I'm still breastfeeding my daughter-she's now 2 1/2, & we've had afew problems, but I've always really stuck up for myself, I will not take shit for feeding my baby. But I'm not sure if Freddies is a "public" place, since it's a private business, with private property. A public place would be a park, or on the street. I'm not sure of the definintions, but I'm looking at my Oregon breastfeeding card that I just took out of my wallet, & it does state " A woman may breastfeed her child in public place." But I wonder about the "definintions", does anyone know for sure what that would be? I'm very interested in a nurse in though, hope it happens!!
Posted by: mamanora | April 14, 2006 at 10:04 PM
Hi there, definetly time for a nurse-in!! I say we pick a day, and all nursing mamas meet at the Fred Meyer closest to them with signs and ready to nurse (indiscreetly!) as their baby or toddler desires!!!
We've had to do this before, but it was very successful, we were on OBP, etc. we need to get the Nursing Mother's Counsel involved ASAP!!
Posted by: Emily Troper | April 15, 2006 at 07:31 AM
Aw, man. That sucks. I am pretty pissed that happened to you. I've breastfed all my 3 kids, often in public and not so discreetly. Nobody ever said anything negative to me about it, and I'd be ripshit if anyone did.
Posted by: Mama Muse | April 15, 2006 at 03:35 PM
My baby isn't due until mid-May and my 2.5 year doesn't even remember how to nurse anymore (she's tried) so I can't actually nurse in the nurse in, but I'm comfortable talking to media professionals, have a few media connections and would be willing to help out.
One thing to be mindful of is that it sounds like FM (owned by midwester Kroger, I believe) doesn't have a stated policy about nursing in public and pressure may result in one we don't like. If we're going to do this, I think we have to be very clear about what our rights really are, and make sure we're putting enough pressure on FM to get the issue addressed, but not so much that we back them into a corner and they take the most conservative approach, which would be to have a posted, stated policy that you have to cover while nursing (doubt they could get away with "no nursing" at all). There are plenty of people who would think that was reasonable, even though we all know it brings unfair shame on mamas and is really an effective ban on nursing. Demanding an apology isn't likely to work; we have to give them an opportunity to save face.
So, in short, I say we do this with a workable end in mind (could we all really avoid shopping at FM forever?) and plan a strategy accordingly.
Posted by: Kat | April 16, 2006 at 01:10 PM
I'll join a nurse-in if one is planned. And looky here:
"BEST PLACE TO BREAST-FEED
There was a small ruckus earlier this year when Jeannette Hamby tried to make discrete public breast-feeding legal. Hamby was inspired by an Albany constituent who called to complain that she had been forced to leave a Fred Meyer because she was breast-feeding. Hamby's office was inundated with calls ranging from "Nursing mothers should stay at home" to "If I want to nurse I'll take off my shirt in Washington Square." The bill died before it reached the floor, although there is a national effort to frame some kind of protective policy around nursing mothers. The controversy brings to light how difficult life can be for breast-feeding moms and their babes. Perhaps that's why you can nearly always find a new mom tucked away and chilling out in the downtown NORDSTROM WOMEN'S LOUNGE (701 SW Broadway). The comfortable spot still has all the amenities--couches, lamps, a changing table, even a sink. But we wish, as Hamby's bill tried to suggest, that anywhere could be named as the best place to breast-feed."
That quote above is from:
http://www.wweek.com/html/bop-sustenance.html#breast
Turns out Kroger (which owns FM) also owns Fry's, QFC, Food 4 Less and many other stores not as common in the NW - they own 21 or so stores. Letters to Kroger, in addition to letters to FM, also seem appropriate.
And for your reading pleasure, here is Kroger's Breastfeeding Support webpage:
http://www.kroger.com/hn/Concern/Breast_Feeding_Support.htm
If you write to Kroger, you can quote their own verbiage in support of breastfeeding.
Posted by: Yaz | April 17, 2006 at 09:57 PM
We just wanted to pass on that Chris (who was the persecuted nursing mama) has started a blog based on the incident: http://reluctantlactivist.blogspot.com/. She actually got a disturbing response from her state rep, which she posted on the blog, that in fact FM may be within their legal rights to ask a nursing mom to "cover up".
If you'd like to make a comment/complaint directly to Fred Meyer, you can do so from their website here: http://www.fredmeyer.com/customercomments.htm
Posted by: urbanMamas | April 18, 2006 at 02:08 PM
the attitude of oregon businesses towards breastfeeding is downright terrible and the legislature's pandering to them is insulting. i was *so* angry when they changed the language in that law to read that businesses are "encouraged" to provide pumping space, and time, to breastfeeding mothers - and, incidentally, took out every mention of the word "breast" (no! not a breast!)
it just goes to show that change is required and we, as mamas, have GOT to start being more vocal. after all, most of us work! we're not invisible or worthless by *anyone's* standards and we've got to stop acting like it. i can't wait for the nurse-in, i'll be there with bells (and 12-month-old) on and liveblog it for blogging baby .
in fact, i'm breastfeeding as i type this... http://www.bloggingbaby.com/2006/04/18/woman-told-to-stop-nursing-in-fred-meyer-store/
Posted by: sarah gilbert | April 18, 2006 at 04:08 PM
I shared this story with one of my colleagues, and she wrote back with some excellent links on shameless lactivism:
"Here's my favorite article about nursing in public http://www.mothering.com/articles/new_baby/breastfeeding/bashful-brazen.html
I also found these cards to hand out when someone reacts inappropriately to a nursing mom
http://www.mommyguide.com/Breastfeeding/BreastfeedingBusinessCards.pdf
and even better, cards to give moms you find nursing to say that what they're doing is great
http://www.breastfeeding.org.nz/staging/caughtyounursing.htm
and another thank you card http://www.militantbreastfeedingcult.com/thankyou_breastfeeding_in_public.html
Also, some businesses in Australia post signs to show that breastfeeding is WELCOME, here's one http://www.pdhu.on.ca/pdf/01_20_06.pdf and another http://www.health.nsw.gov.au/health-public-affairs/mhcs/pdfs/6830/NGO-6830-ENG.pdf"
Posted by: Tia | April 19, 2006 at 10:17 AM
Just remembered to share a tip on a comfy place to nurse if you find yourself downtown in the Park blocks. PSU's Smith building has a ladies room on the second floor (I think) with a partitioned room for nursing moms. Comfy chairs and everything. Sometimes when baby is too distracted to eat you can use a quiet place, PSU's got one. When you're at the farmer's market, it can be handy. If only more places were like PSU.
Posted by: Suz | April 19, 2006 at 09:21 PM
I actually stayed up past my bedtime tonight to watch the news story on FM and the great breastfeeding scandal of '06! As a mother who is happily breastfeeding her second son, I say hurray to Chris for not only standing up for her right to feed her baby, but also a double fist pump in the air for nursing that sweet baby during her TV interview. I have nursed in upscale restaurants, Target, WalMart, Macy's, the waiting room at the doctor's office, you name it. Although I have never been approached and asked to leave or cover up, it may be because I have a "I just dare you" look on my face. I do have a Hooter Hider which has been helpful, but when a baby is hungry and getting frantic, you can't always take the time to get those things on. And I would think someone would rather deal with a little hint of skin showing than a screaming baby. Please, the only thing they cover up in magazines and on TV anymore is the actual nipple, and when a baby is nursing, you don't see that! It's sad that our society is more accepting of sexual innuendos on daytime television than they are of the most natural bodily funtion imaginable. What are we coming to?
Posted by: Jessa | April 23, 2006 at 11:51 PM
Here's the text of the story that ran on KATU, from their website.
http://katu.com/stories/85295.html
By Shellie Bailey-Shah
and KATU.com Web Staff
PORTLAND, Ore. - An incident at a Portland Fred Meyer store has the company reassessing its policy on women who breastfeed their babies on store grounds.
Chris Musser, the mother of a 3-month-old infant, says she was sitting on a bench breastfeeding her newborn near the checkout line at the Gateway Fred Meyer store when the store director approached her and asked her to cover up after receiving complaints from customers.
Musser says she complained to the company management about the incident and was contacted by a regional manager who backed the actions of the store director.
She said the incident caused her embarrassment and made her feel ashamed.
Under Oregon law, women can breastfeed in any public place, but the statute does not define what constitutes a 'public place.'
While Fred Meyer stores are private property, they do invite the public in.
Musser posted the incident on her blog and began to receive feedback from women across the country.
So did Fred Meyer's management, in the form of dozens of emails.
Days ago, Melinda Merrill, spokesperson for the Fred Meyer chain, said they regretted the actions of the store manager and apologized to Musser.
Merrill added that the company will be updating store policy to allow mothers to breastfeed at will in the stores.
She also said store management teams will be given new training on the subject of breastfeeding.
Posted by: Kat | April 25, 2006 at 07:55 AM
I gotta tell ya...I agree with Fred Meyers...Oregon law states: "A woman may breastfeed her child in a public place." (ORS § 109.001
1999 Ore. ALS 306; 1999 Ore. Laws 306; 1999 Ore. SB 744)
What everybody seems to be missing here is this: Fred Meyers is NOT considered a PUBLIC place...it is a privately owned business that INVITES the public into it and can operate under it's own set policies...big difference.
Also, The manager had done so only after receiving many complaints, was discreet and simply asked her to cover the baby while feeding. She wasn't kicked out, she wasn't told to stop... How exactly did this cause her embarrassment? was barely it announced for all to hear? I highly doubt it. Yes, it's natural. Yes, it's no different then a dressed woman in a magazine ad...and yes, it makes some people uncomfortable...just the way it is. Her “rights” were not violated!
I have been watching this story pretty closely and it really does have sides...I’m a middle of the roader...on one hand I see the mother's point but on the other I see the point of the people who do not find it appropriate to just whip a tit out anywhere a nursing mother deems is "public" and start feeding...The line I see more clearly however is that: Mothers nursing feel as if all of the public should bend to their view, without even taking anybody else's views into consideration. That's selfish...discretion was all that was/is asked...and for some reason that seems to be the fuel for the fire...
I operate a retail store that requires ALL patrons to wear clothing at ALL TIMES. No shirt, no entrance. Put your shirt on, you can come in (no, it’s not a convenient store, BTW) ...if a mother were nursing I would not ask her stop, but, if I politely and discreetly asked her to please cover her baby while feeding in my store due to customer complaints, and she then got rude and curt with me over it, and made a scene, I'd kick her right of the store same as I would somebody being rude and curt with me over putting a shirt on to enter my store. Why? because she’s being rude. My business is NOT public domain...and that is within MY rights and law as the business operator.
Posted by: RC | April 25, 2006 at 10:12 AM
I think what people tend to forget when these issues arise is it's not about your rights or mine, as a nursing mother or a shopper... or any such thing. It's about a baby getting food when it's hungry. That's all. Nothing more. A baby has a right to eat.
Posted by: Shetha | April 25, 2006 at 10:30 AM
The problem, as Shetha points out, is that breastfeeding is EATING, not exhibition. Education notwithstanding, some people perceive breastfeeding to be a 'bodily function' akin to picking one's nose or urination. Yet, those people eat and drink in public, and I'd wager at least some of them even chew with their mouths open (something I find offensive) or belch loudly, and never think twice about it. But breastfeeding? To those folks, that's NASTY. It's sad. RC, I wish you'd tell us where your business is so I can make sure not to offend you or your customers by buying anything there.
Posted by: Betsy | April 25, 2006 at 11:22 AM
My husband heard a story on Oregon Considered today about the Gateway Fred Meyer incident. Regional has withdrawn their support of the policy of the Gateway location and have set a store wide policy stating that mothers may breastfeed in any part of the store.
Posted by: Yaz | April 26, 2006 at 07:35 PM
RC...love that you're bold enough to make such commentary, but not to tell us the name of your business. When a baby is crying frantically hungry, he needs to eat. It is amazing to me that grownups, who are able to walk away or look away when they notice a baby nursing can only think of their own discomfort and not that of the baby, who can't understand "wait until we get to the car/find a secluded spot so that some poor grownup won't be offended at the sight of you eating." Really, are you that self-absorbed that you believe your comfort should outweigh the *needs* of babies?
Posted by: Chris | April 29, 2006 at 05:23 PM
There are great arguments on both side of this issue and the reality of it is, is that it is a balance issue more then “who’s right or wrong” issue. It is very interesting to me, like I said in my earlier post (and BTW thank you for proving my point...) That people will only see their side of the spectrums. Some very key points from my post were over looked and not even commented on, which is making me wonder if was actually read.
1. Businesses are not “PUBLIC PLACES” semi public at best.
2. This women was not asked to stop...only to cover due to complaints from NUMEROUS individual customers with in that business...being asked to cover your baby is not the end of the world people...seriously.
3. If a mother were nursing I WOULD NOT ASK HER TO STOP, however, if numerous customers complained I would ask her to cover. If she got rude and curt THEN I would kick her out as I would any other person getting rude and curt with me. In fact, by allowing the nursing mother to feed her baby I am in fact hosting her right to do so, covering, if asked, is what we in the “real world” call “common courtesy”.
4 Chris you asked me this: Really, are you that self-absorbed that you believe your comfort should outweigh the *needs* of babies?
First, Nobody is or has denied the *needs* of the babie(s) in these situations so, try to stay on topic without interjecting as if they have or are. And second, No I don’t. Honestly, this is not an issue of self absorption. I agree w/ Shetha that this a eating issue (I too think it’s gross when people chew and talk w/ their mouths full and I do say something about it...) but for some reason A LOT of people are made uncomfortable by public breast feeding. Personally I am not. However, In a business where the people who are shopping may, for their own personal reason(s)...something I have no control over, find it offensive and leave my store with out buying anything it hurts the stores bottom line, which then in turn hurts the employees and their respective families...who’s gonna feed them? Who's responsible for them? I am, from the wages they earn working for me from the pay roll the business earns from selling merchandise bought by John and Jane Q. Public.
I’m not saying that one nursing mother is going to cause bankruptcy but the point I’m trying to make is, is that my responsibilities are to the employees, their families and my customers AND to maintain a common happiness among ALL of them...so, how can you even ask a question like that? I haven’t had a self absorbed moment in 10 years. All I’m saying is that the mothers should be just as accommodating to accept a request for discretion, as a business is allowed to ask for it if need be and not get bent and twisted about it.
Posted by: RC | May 01, 2006 at 10:34 AM
I know I may be shooting a dead horse here but a thought popped into my head. I think the reason people get up in arms on either side of this arguement is because of the fact that society falls into two categories: Comfortable or Uncomfortable with breastfeeding in public. When someone is uncomfortable to the point that they'll walk out of a place because it's being done there, that says a lot about that person. Some people might say they wouldn't even want that person's business because they firmly believe in a child's right to eat. Some people would prefer to ask the woman to cover up or feed the child elsewhere so as to remove the discomfort for those who complain. The difference between these two behaviors is that one is perpetuating the idea that it is not OK to breastfeed in public, and the other is attempting to help move our society in a direction that will be more comfortable with breastfeeding in public. In the end, the message that we give others, especially our children, will determine the future fate of this arguement.
Posted by: Shetha | May 01, 2006 at 01:14 PM
RC... To assure you that your earlier post was indeed read with care, here are point-by-point responses (reflecting simply my personal opinion):
1. Whether or not Fred Meyer is subject to Oregon's public breastfeeding law is at least debatable. Certainly the company has an economic interest in making itself inviting to a wide spectrum of people, including the parents of infant children. Perhaps even such parents especially! My family's staple purchases include diapers, diaper cream, baby food, wipes, nursing pads, milk storage supplies, children's books, and more. This represents repeat business for Fred Meyer several times a week.
2. Did this case really involve a high volume of complaints? My recollection, possibly faulty, is that there were maybe two or three at most. My hope and expectation is that a retail manager would prefer to gently steer complaining customers away from the alleged problem than to subject a mother and infant to disapproving attention.
3. I'm sorry that some people are still uncomfortable when I "whip a tit out" (yes, breastfeeding requires breasts!) and feed my baby wherever we happen to be. But frankly, I view this as their problem, and not mine. Asking for "discretion" is a shaming process just as much as asking someone to stop nursing altogether. Covering an excited, hungry baby is rarely if ever realistic. Covering the mother is rarely if ever necessary, because she is already dressed (and unlikely to be pushing herself or her baby into anyone else's face)... Not *all* sensibilities deserve to be accommodated.
4. Have you ever witnessed someone nursing their baby away from home with no clothes on? I sure haven't. So what does this have to do with a "no shirt, no entrance" policy? Also, if a mama in your store were to be offended by a request to cover up her child, does that instantly constitute a rude, curt "scene"?
I wholeheartedly endorse Betsy's statement that "I wish you'd tell us where your business is so I can make sure not to offend you or your customers by buying anything there." If you are reluctant to do so because of a potential mama backlash, well, that should tell you something right there. Conversely, adopting and advertising an unequivocally pro-breastfeeding policy is likely to earn you a loyal mama following.
Posted by: Tia | May 01, 2006 at 01:25 PM
And I'll just add this: substitute "African-American" or "Latino" or "Jew" for "woman feeding her baby" in your post, RC, and you'll see how intolerant your post sounds.
"If I asked an African-American person to move to the end of the counter because I got numerous complaints, and she got curt and rude, then I would ask her to leave."
Would you roll over for customers who were offended by having to shop with those groups? Likely not, and these aren't exactly equivalent situations, but I think it's illustrative to make that comparison. You have an immediate responsibility to your family and employees. Yes. You also have one to society at large - as we all do - to set an example as a business owner and human being. Sometimes the latter has to take precedence, in my opinion.
If you think of it in those terms, you can see an underlying intolerance - though you protest you have no problem with breastfeeding yourself, just the possibility that you might lose a little money - a little more clearly. Perhaps that perspective will help you see what we mean.
Posted by: Betsy | May 01, 2006 at 01:44 PM
Yes, RC, please tell us where your business is. Since the business of those who are offended by a woman breastfeeding in public is more important to you than that of breastfeeding women, I want to make sure I don't accidentally shop at your place of business.
And Betsy makes a good point. Also, substitue "persons with a disability" or "grossly obese person". There are those who are offended by the sight of a person with a disability because it makes them uncomfortable to look at someone who is, for example, drooling or has a strange expression on their face. Or someone who is morbidly obese. Does that mean that those people can complain to you, and you'd ask the disabled person to wait outside or go to the restroom until the offended customer was done with their business? Of course not.
Let me tell you, RC, that people who are offended by nursing in public are most likely not going to organize a boycott of your store in order to prevent you from allowing mothers to nurse there. However, nursing moms sure as heck will in order to preserve their rights. So, you'd better be careful what you say. Fred Meyer learned that lesson.
Supporters of the right to NIP, please visit http://nippersunite.blogspot.com.
Posted by: Chrissy | May 04, 2006 at 10:37 AM
Thanks to all who have contributed their thoughts. But for now, we are closing this thread to further comments.
Posted by: urbanMama | May 04, 2006 at 09:36 PM